Description

Jenni Thomas discusses the topic of losing a child and how to overcome it.

Transcript

Julie Peasgood: Overcoming the loss of a child is the most heart breaking thing any parent can go through children are expected to grief the loss of parents not the other way around Mark and Lucy Quint tragically lost their 3 year old daughter Hassel 2 years ago we are also joined by Jenni Thomas OBE from child bereavement trust welcome to you all first of all can I just say a big thank you to you both Mark and Lucy for joining the and how much I feel and sympathizes with you both its such a difficult because such an important subject to talk about so thank you for joining us today. I have got a beautiful picture of Hassel here can I just show you that absolutely lovely she looks so like you to see tell us tell us about Hassel tell us what happened. Lucy: Well Hassel was a very healthy happy girl and she suddenly fell ill one Wednesday night during the night she came down with flu I rang the doctor and the next day I took her to the Dr. Sargero and he gave her some antibiotics and I looked after her on Thursday and Friday and Saturday she still didn't look very well so I rang the doctor the again and took her back down to the Sargero and they said that she needed to go to the hospital that he was quiet poorly I drive first straight to the hospital from the doctors which took less than five minutes and a nurse carried her into the children's ward and she was talking to the nurse about her birthday party that was coming up and she was looking forwards to, that's right yeah and within ten minutes and I getting into the children's ward her heart stopped and they tried for an hour to revive her but they couldn't. Julie Peasgood: This must Mark this must been the most awful shock, I mean she had flu on Wednesday and she is not with us anymore the weekend. Mark: Yeah I mean you talk it for granted that kids get illness and they get from and you know I was just a normal respond for annoy wasn't that. Lucy: When she came down. Mark: When she came down with the flu and she was fine, she was lying on the settee watching tele and she still saw for a two or three days you can know kind of felt looking back we always find that she was dying for three days and we didn't know but it wasn't the case she just had the flu and it developed into something far worse when she go to the hospital it was more I call though is which is I actually stopped her harm. Julie Peasgood: I was going to say what the final diagnosis was. Lucy: Myocarditis Mark: Myocarditis yeah and you can get it moldy and she was aware that came more called myocarditis. Julie Peasgood: And this when you first met Jenni from the child bereavement trust. Jenni Thomas: I didn't meet you then did I; it was a little bit later. Mark: Yeah it was probably it was before the funeral I guess but it might be a week or two later yeah because you know you are reeling so. Julie Peasgood: You must be absolutely as you say reeling with shock and you say you felt she was dying may be for few days did you suffer enormous guilt that did we do enough. Lucy: Yes Mark: We both did different things but. Lucy: Well I did unto some extend I still do I think that is as a parent you feel that you should care fro your children in every way that you can. Julie Peasgood: You took it to the doctor you got his verdict or her verdict. Lucy: Yes but I think there is something that distinct to within you that. Mark: You failed Lucy: Yeah, really Julie Peasgood: Yes and did the counseling help in that aspect. Mark: Definitely I mean we still need help we probably who I feel and you cant quiet put your finger on how it helps but just the process you go through I mean when we first meet Jenni she very much so guide us the bitter of how we needed to get through the next one or two weeks and then you know you suddenly realize you getting more and more help with the riots digest because it serves the best digest your grief and I mean apart from the practicalities of the funeral when we also had some press interestingly its on because it were a few discitis on children but yeah you might have that certainly digest of bitter and so we still need it. Julie Peasgood: I'm sure what about and you had another daughter Shelly who was what a little 18 months a toddler at that time. Lucy: That's right. Julie Peasgood: Did she understand what was going on. Lucy: Yes she quickly picked up on the changed atmosphere of the house that Saturday morning it was a normal house we were having baking an eggs for the breakfast and Saturday night my parents arrived your dad arrived at the house people with turning up to you which is then it is and it was from that point on for the next two weeks really the house was upside down with people things going on Mark and I have things return to and yeah it was a really difficult time for Shelly but we coped it with it by talking her about her. Julie Peasgood: Did you really very frank as much as she could understand. Lucy: Yeah, yeah I told her basically what happened to Hassel she looked like she quiet understood. Mark: She was still getting that the time anyways so you could ever conversation with that but outside there was a complication in that and we went home that night from the hospital we had to leave Hassel and Shelly came down with the flu that night so we go on to the doctor the doctor came around and say us and said well think things will be okay and well that's not good enough so we were back at the hospital for another couple of nights and we you know probably would nothing would harm but we really thought the same thing was going to happen. Julie Peasgood: I'm sure because that one of the thing I have been I haven't lost, lost my child but I lost both my parents to council very quickly and that's one thing that you feel a great fear that is going to happen to you and to others and other people you love so I can entirely emphasize with that. Mark: That was quiet scary time with in a way it kicked you out of the grief just for a bit because all of a sudden you're back to looking often your other child were as we probably would have then I gone home and kind of let's someone else look after it was an option we had to get into action. Julie Peasgood: You are taking any chances. Mark: No, no and she did have the same flu it turned out if I though it is well to know, but its just it's not the flu it's the stages of that a flu that it can come that's will cause the problem with Hassel. Julie Peasgood: Does that fear dissipate, that fear that you have to obviously about Shelly just after Hassel had died does, does it get less and you get more rational or do you still are you still very a acute on that aspect. Lucy: For me personally it has dissipated I don't particularly think I over react when Shelly is ill, now. Julie Peasgood: Great Mark: But for me I has an because we had only three months ago Shelly had a temperature at home it was a lot yeah and I took her up to the doctors and he said she is probably fine and its natural and also will two days ago when I you know I see once she is holding it still we need a double checked her and it was over and over and over again it stood lots of confident but all right seven other look so it still worries me or I still picture for it really but you can't go through life long like this in trouble to go that go would be. Julie Peasgood: Yeah and obviously these were the child bereavement trust really comes in and we tell us a little more about the work that you do Jenni. Jenni Thomas: If I can just explain that my role with Mark and Lucy was very much to do with hospital that I worked for I'm bereavement councilor in the hospital in Buckinghamshire were I work and it was because of Mark and Lucy asking for some support that I was got involved the child bereavement trust is an national charity that's based in that part of the world so we don't often direst help in seeing people normally we have got a help line and we've got a support line and we offer support to families they can phone up and we've got lots of resources and we can put people in touch with people you can help them. Julie Peasgood: Okay. Jenni Thomas: But obviously I can't be available all over the country so were I work is just for the NHS I work for a hospital that's have division to see that this sort of terrible tragedy were people just don't know what to do it can be very helpful if there is somebody they can help I mean I don't offer bereavement counseling at the beginning I have offered help and information support really and then gradually as the months went by we looked at some of the other things that Mark and Lucy struggled with you know because its such a huge thing. So it's enormous nothing prepares you. There is no preparation. Julie Peasgood: Not all and also you've raised a very important point just to talk because I know people avoided me like the play that didn't know what to say and I'm sure that must have happen to you when you are naturally just want to talk and talk about Hassel is that true. Lucy: It is and still is now two years one to some extend it's a very difficult topic for people to discuss in day to day life and I find it difficult myself to be honest and it makes your relationships difficult with normal people because they don't have this kind of experience to share with is not like other aspects of motherhood where if you are having a problem with breastfeeding or terrible things you can talk to other moms about it there isn't anybody else normally that you can't talk about it a problem for me I have got Mark that I can talk about and luckily we do have a great relationship and we've helped each other. Julie Peasgood: Fantastic, did you put any strains over you or always strong and united. Lucy: I would say that we were together more. Mark: Yeah I think we always said the same we would think better people for having gone to through it is and. Julie Peasgood: Its not strange thing to say its pretty wonderful thing. Mark: And now it gets not badly yeah but what we felt immediately we were plucked out reality so every one else is in reality that's what we feel we don't ever look in common with people any more. Julie Peasgood: During this all high tend night mare. Mark: The different kind of reality is a simple one when other things don't quote a better so much but you still have to carry own and do the normal things but. Julie Peasgood: And also as a man I mean it's a generalization forgive me but women are a lot more open and we do tend to discuss it and we are not so shy of saying if we feel wrong bad but I think for men you are little more closed. Mark: Yeah, definitely yeah I mean I lot to talk about Hassel same with Lucy any opportunity really but generally yeah men don't want to talk out I was, I was in a pub one night and with a few friends we were talking generally about quiet a long than aquarium I think some one would been and I would always cry and some one else would have been there and I said a we took Hassel right for her third birthday and it was how the grim repaired arrived you know that I was this and to what if what if one else that say something and then a conversation carried on take him actually I have annoy and it was that was the end of it when almost time it was time for me to bring the conversation down are genuinely did have a great die and that things are going to change that losing Hassel that make me difference. Julie Peasgood: Yeah. Mark: So I used you know it's a strange situation of being and you find you pair of not signed because these uncomfortable for other people and that's, that's what it is. Julie Peasgood: Yeah because they can't. Mark: Yeah I can't just stand in or probably would have been the same if cycles were turned so. Julie Peasgood: Yeah but that's what you got a lot of comfort obviously and help from discussing things. Mark: Definitely and you make lot more and people you know the people who had the same kind of problems and is funny how you can sit in a meeting with all the paper and if you are really sorry for some one else experience because normally done and if some one says I'm more catch diet and but you know when you are there in to console to pay fro it really helps. Julie Peasgood: So if anybody's is watching who has friends who been through this what's some tip what some advice you can give from your hearts to help them to actually approach the subject and let their friends talk. Lucy: I've got friend who did approach me very well right from the start she might declare to me that she would be there fro me when I needed her but she was a going to keep calling me in case I wanted some space and she is always being quiet happy to hear about Hassel she'll bring up Hassel some times and she always asks me how I'm how I'm coping with lot without Hassel and that's so nice she is one in a million. Julie Peasgood: Yeas because your validated Hassles validated this must be such a free exchange. Lucy: It's lovely its were I would like friendship closes together. Julie Peasgood: I can understand that, did you find that either of you became more religious or turned in a one to a visit a spiritualistic contact Hassel or any aspects like that. Mark: Well we are a not religious person that's how what our found was they wanted to think that there is the way I'm going to save her again so a kind of conveniently ask all to think right might be a right something else at then look into any death but it is that high there is some rows that we are going o make bother than there when they say after I back being spiritual do you. Lucy: I did think about saying somebody didn't I? Mark: Oh yeah that's right. Lucy: But I didn't and I don't know why I guess it just wasn't right at the time for me, but I think I would. Julie Peasgood: If somebody wanted to Jenni would you advocate that they follow the halt and did so. Jenni Thomas: I suppose the way I would work is that I would just ask them to explore it themselves because I wouldn't really give any advice so anything like that I mean its up to families to do what they need to do and there is no right way to me or to you know in grief people do as they must and one of the things I was thinking of how much you help to each other I wanted you to do that you know remember you trying to find the photograph form out to have to have at his office do you remember and you felt that would make you really sad but actually you did take one in the end and. Mark: Definitely yeah. Lucy: And it did make you feel really sad. Mark: yeah but I was that one another things that I remember Jenni explaining that you, you cant were two different paper Lucy grief's in and when I'm grieving another Lucy is kind of the looks more than negatives and I will turn to be positive so we meet some were in the middle she directs me down conveniently after trying to figure out and if it does work because sometimes you cant be up by all the time and you need to. Julie Peasgood: So you balance each other at all. Mark: Very much yeah I think we were lucky were we were different in that aspect of work. Jenni Thomas: Its quiet common I think it's something that happens a lot between men and women you know women are very often were able to look at the sadness and the laughs into cry about and share and men look at how to look to the future and they try and repair and restore things and be practical and if you can do what Hassel what did which was help each other with those you will become closer any way because somewhere you are giving each other the big but you are not so good at Lucy: Yes sure Jenni Thomas: You know so Mark: And is fine you need that to be pointed out to you because other wise I remember thinking Lucy is always crying you know and I am trying to so do this and we still got carry on and when you realize it there is a place for it. You know and that is important then you think right okay. Julie Peasgood: And you got to go through that stage what ever it is before you couldn't get better and heal Jenni if somebody isn't fortunate enough to get counseling and get help and what helps them if they bottle up their grief does it have physical manifestations. Jenni Thomas: I don't think every one needs counseling at al I think people need support and a lot of what I do is support and some of it is offering some counseling some of the work I have learnt about but I think some people family can help friends like Lucy is just described a friend that was so sensitive and caring and I that's really what matches that people get what they need when they need and it doesn't matter when you grief you know if you don't manage to grief at the time the professionals think you should that will be time when you can so I actually think that people need to be alert to get what they need when they need it and if you bottle up things you bottle them up you know may be that's how you were before you had the grief anyway you know I remember one dad saying to me when I said to him do you think you could tell me how you feel and he said to me I was shocked I could do it before my little boy died I don't why I'm going to suddenly get good at it now. Julie Peasgood: And articulate my feelings if they. Jenni Thomas: And I have really learned so much from parents I mean everything that the child believe and trust us and is based among parents have told us is important to them and that's were the risk the death of the hold like Hassel or whether its hoping a little one like Shelly because sometimes children are they needs are not always seen I mean you know when they have never grief if a child losses her mom or a dad that's also a part of the work of the child grief in trust, so what we listened to people who have been there and then we try and make sure that the professionals who are the nurses and the doctors the police the carnal officer all those people that re really have a crucial role when a tragedy like this happens that they are trained a they know what to do to help families and they know what to do because families have told us. Julie Peasgood: Our doctors could do generally do they know what to do in the right things as they do give enough time are they are able to do. Jenni Thomas: Its increasingly improving you know I think often people who are not as they good as they might be because they find it difficult because they haven't actually had any important to what families need but there is some very good people there are some women's caring aspect you found that its Patrik some people don't know but. Mark: We were quiet found to know because you from the point that Hassel died thus this seems does turn in and we don't even realize it you know the we are a nurse who was really a good was she did things like that evening she got some for instance Hassles feet and lock of her hand now that is sort of things that you just think at the time you can. Lucy: They are so precious and at the time because you don't know previous experience you don't know how to do with what's going on and you just thinking about surviving you could think I would like a hand print. Mark: Because you are not thinking straight in. Julie Peasgood: So look for hair is just so full for listeners. Lucy: It is. Mark: And that so we had the nurse who was cry and we pin back to save her as well and we went in the room that Hassel died in a year or year after and that was how far been able to do things were like that you know they are so good that they help this and the carnal was dry because we start dealing with police and corners and its kind of scary but being tricky at thing annoying what she was very good as well so people are very fulfill but yeah there is a lot of that pipe work and we are under the police round the house because it was mysterious death. Lucy: A sudden death. Mark: A sudden death yeah and so you don't think that is going to happen. Julie Peasgood: All of that sort of thing is as you think that is pleased. Mark: And we thank we ruin and now and they have checked everything and we strike forward but. Jenni Thomas: But suddenly you have the photograph that beautiful you've seen on the front of the newspapers and you have to cope with all of that from having a little girl bouncing around one day and then being the front of a national paper and her parents to go with that is enormous. Julie Peasgood: She is so beautiful and then you had another little girl just in and that must be strange as well do you when you start to eel moments of happiness is there a guilt a wearied guilt that comes with daughter is it such a relief. Lucy: I don't feel guilt with that all personally I have really enjoyed having another baby she looks like Hassel it brings back all sorts of memories that I've forgotten for me its been lovely. Julie Peasgood: I don't mean guilt that you two did anything wrong I just mean guilt that you are feeling happy again and moving on this. Mark: There is a guilt there is an alumina that because you can start laughing and joking and then you dint forget but you know you guys that are back of your mind and then you know more have been a tine and off they feel guilty sometimes but then nothing well we carry on them we have got might best of it and we decided we are going to have two children why don't we and we decided you know we would have 5 or 6 if we could 5 kids surround us. Julie Peasgood: Hope you do, just I hope you do just a final word for any parents fro who are watching any advice or comfort that either you to can offer. Lucy: Talk that's the best advice that I could give really talk to each other try and be patient and understanding with each other because there is nobody else that can relay to your experience as well as your partner if you are lucky enough. Mark: And that's what true and get some help that you know if from somebody know the child bereavement trust definitely because we were pretty solid and we worked very well we didn't have some. Julie Peasgood: Jenni would you like to tell us a little bit more the website number if anybody wants to contact the child bereavement trust. Jenni Thomas: Yes, I love to I eman we got our website that you can put a posting on yourself you can actually speak to other bereave parents so there is a parents forum and there is also professional forums if you want to know about our training we can you know help you with that if you are a professional all the things that Mark and Lucy have talked about that were helpful for them its all because that is professionals have been trained and supported to do a very difficult job so the website is www.childbereavement.doc.uk. Julie Peasgood: www.childbereavement.doc.uk. Jenni Thomas: That's right Julie Peasgood: Thank you Jenni thank you Mark thank you Lucy. Mark and Lucy: Thank you.